Skeetendo

’Cause all games were better on the GBC

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#101 2012-01-07 15:24:34

Miksy91
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 715/2,347

Re: Pokemon Wood

I've been following this discussion and just thought of saying that likely, I won't be helping out.
Mainly because I've a hack of my own and want to carry on with it (and do a lot of other stuff too of course).

Anyway, if this hack gets somewhere it's possible that I'll change my mind about it later.

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#102 2012-01-08 00:14:36

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 257/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:

I strongly dislike the community idea.

1. Timezones - For instance, I was at school when you initially made this post and couldn't get a chance to post.
2. Disagreements - People make things in different ways. I'd rather put my ideas in as I get them rather than compromise (selfish I know, but I'd like to actually have some input in the hack)
3. Community hacks have never worked/never been finished. Look at Pokemon Artic/Zap/Molten for instance.

Just my two cents. I think I'll sit out on this one.

1. Timezones don't seem to be an actual problem, and pokered is a good proof of this.
2. Can you make some concrete example of things that could cause troubles? Why shouldn't everyone get along with each other? Unless someone's opposing to someone else mindlessly...
3. I never knew Artic/Zap/Molten was a community hack. Anyway lots of individual hacks have never worked/never been finished; how about yours, for instance (no offense intented)?

kkj1116 wrote:

Those who want to work on it separately, like ~Red, can do it separately and release his end version.

I would be fine with that, but first answer this question: how many of those who want to work on this separately are actually able to do all the aspects of a hack (including connections and scripting)? Sorry if I sound big-headed but I really doubt those separate versions would end up anything more than simple map edits (in which case using Wood as a base wouldn't be any better than using the original Blue version as base ROM)


kkj1116 wrote:
stag019 wrote:

Not really. I mean, anyone can do anything they want with any hack. It's not like we got Nintendo's permission to hack Pokemon in the first place. ;)

Ethically speaking. I guess there's no law to stop it but most people wouldn't want people to modify their hacks even after declaring it was wanted as a community effort.

Obviously you can't force anyone not to re-hack your hack, but it's something I'd advise. If people want to respect my preferences, it would be nice. If they don't, the most I can do, in pratical terms, is being disappointed.

Mateo wrote:

stag has a point, although I would feel worse about hacking Brown without Koolboyman's permission than I do about hacking Gold without gamefreak's permission. I think it comes from the personal vs impersonal nature of our relationships with the creators. Gamefreak is a faceless corporation, a sort of man-behind-the-curtain. You do something to him, he doesn't directly know, probably doesn't really care, and you don't really care because "Gamefreak" made it and "Gamefreak" isn't a person. A hack on the other hand, was made by an individual or group of individuals. While we may not know them in person or by their given name, we know them through their presence in our communities, we can actually speak with them and discuss things, we can actually ask permission and be told a yes or no answer, and we generally feel worse about it than we would a corporation. It's like bootlegging music vs going to your friend's house and stealing his CD. The legal ramifications are technically worse on the bootlegging, but you are more likely to be personally caught by your friend whose CD you stole. Also, your friend may shun you for stealing his CDs whereas the bootlegging will get you a fine perhaps, but often you won't even get noticed. With this, hacking won't have any real consequences, but if you use another person's hack without their permission, the community will find out about it and probably shun you and your hack.

that's my take on it anyway.

I agree with you, Mateo.


~Red wrote:

I truly do not like community based projects. Plus, mercurial would probably not be the way to go, from what I know it's for mostly programming only. What about all the graphics and maps and features? Perhaps I don't fully understand mercurial.

Hacking IS mostly programming. Also, if you want a good example, check pokered out: maps and other data are stored in a neat, organized way, in their own folders, thus a disassembled hack is much nicer than a hack where all the edits are hidden inside a binary file (common hacks). Using mercurial you can track all the changes, making it much easier for people to work together and to find when/where eventual errors were made originally.

~Red wrote:

I had problems using mercurial before too, which would further exclude me from the project.

If you had problems using mercurial before, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will never learn how to use it correctly. What IIMarckus said is really true, mercurial is indeed helpful and handy for projects like these.


Anyway if you're looking for the repository, it's here: Wood Repo.

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#103 2012-01-08 00:22:40

Kuroko Aizawa
Member
Registered: 2011-12-01
Post 192/500

Re: Pokemon Wood

So, would now be a good time to talk about mapping? ...

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#104 2012-01-08 00:29:48

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 258/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

Sure, we have an IRC (here are the details). What about it?

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#105 2012-01-08 00:44:02

Mateo
Member
Registered: 2009-11-25
Post 1,164/3,627

Re: Pokemon Wood

Would there be a way to include a 256 tile and block hack like we do with gold?


I am no longer active on this forum. I only pop in from time to time.

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#106 2012-01-08 00:49:12

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 259/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

It would need to be converted from a DMG (classic GameBoy) "cartridge" into a GBC one, but this will cause it to lose all the SGB features, and I really like SGB features.

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#107 2012-01-08 00:52:13

Mateo
Member
Registered: 2009-11-25
Post 1,165/3,627

Re: Pokemon Wood

Ah, okay. Not worth it then.


I am no longer active on this forum. I only pop in from time to time.

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#108 2012-01-08 14:54:29

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 162/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Sawakita wrote:

Anyway lots of individual hacks have never worked/never been finished; how about yours, for instance (no offense intented)?

YOUR hack was never finished either, so you're very hypocritical for saying this. And I still work on mine in my free time when I'm not doing IMPORTANT things like MY A LEVELS. And you have offended me.

Sawakita wrote:

I would be fine with that, but first answer this question: how many of those who want to work on this separately are actually able to do all the aspects of a hack (including connections and scripting)? Sorry if I sound big-headed but I really doubt those separate versions would end up anything more than simple map edits (in which case using Wood as a base wouldn't be any better than using the original Blue version as base ROM)

You're asking us to finish Wood because you're running out of MAP and STORYLINE ideas -_-'

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#109 2012-01-08 17:40:33

Miksy91
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 717/2,347

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:

You're asking us to finish Wood because you're running out of MAP and STORYLINE ideas -_-'

I don't think that's what Sawakita is asking. Instead, he wants people to continue his hack but when the ones who do it can't do something "complicated", Sawakita would be there to do it.

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#110 2012-01-08 18:44:25

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 260/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

Pingouin7 wrote:

Wouldn't it be possible to convert it to a GBC-enhanced "cartridge"?
You know, like Gold and Silver.

It would be possible, but SGB mode appeals me more than GBC.

~Red wrote:

YOUR hack was never finished either, so you're very hypocritical for saying this. And I still work on mine in my free time when I'm not doing IMPORTANT things like MY A LEVELS. And you have offended me.

Indeed my hack is not finished, that's why I'd like it to become a community project. Also, I'm sorry if you took offense. Though, I'm saddened by the fact that you're replying so harshly to me, despite all the care and time I spent answering your questions and helping you with your hacks.

~Red wrote:

You're asking us to finish Wood because you're running out of MAP and STORYLINE ideas -_-'

I don't have the time to work on all the aspect of this hack, and I also don't have so much fun making maps and thinking up events, thus I'm looking for someone who'd enjoy these aspect, so I can focus on the programming side, since I enjoy it much more. If I didn't have to both study and work, I would work on all the required aspects of the hack (although I admit that I'm not the most creative person in the world).

Miksy91 wrote:

I don't think that's what Sawakita is asking. Instead, he wants people to continue his hack but when the ones who do it can't do something "complicated", Sawakita would be there to do it.

Exactly.

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#111 2012-01-08 18:44:50

dooshboi
Member
From: Brooklyn, New York
Registered: 2010-11-02
Post 111/132

Re: Pokemon Wood

Yeah, pretty sure he's referring to ASM.


I don't calculate stat values, I don't breed my way to perfection, and I don't care about natures. I catch my Pokemon the way they are, and treat them like individuals instead of brainless drones.

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#112 2012-01-08 20:50:24

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 163/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Oh well. I can't even compile it anyway since the makefile is written for a Unix machine.

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#113 2012-01-08 21:31:30

Cartmic
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 87/156

Re: Pokemon Wood

Just adding my two cents,

Perhaps starting from scratch would be a better way of producing an RBGY community project, that way the community would have a completely clean slate to work off, then if someone who decides to open up their dwindling hack they could put certain bits of data and code up in the repository they want to donate, then people have a meeting on how it could be implemented or whether it is appropriate for the project. So for example we take a snap shot of the current assembly code, then Sawakita you could perhaps donate the new Graphical routine you wrote to display the Trainer and Pokemon images.

Cartmic.

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#114 2012-01-08 23:05:56

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 261/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

Sounds good. I guess that the easiest feature to port over to another hack would be the Real Time Clock, since I wrote it almost completely on a separate file.

Last edited by Sawakita (2012-01-08 23:06:21)

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#115 2012-01-09 09:31:16

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 164/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Sawakita wrote:

Indeed my hack is not finished, that's why I'd like it to become a community project. Also, I'm sorry if you took offense. Though, I'm saddened by the fact that you're replying so harshly to me, despite all the care and time I spent answering your questions and helping you with your hacks.

Oh please do not pull out the sympathy card. I wasn't harsh at all, I was being realistic. You didn't have to help me.

Sawakita wrote:

I don't have the time to work on all the aspect of this hack, and I also don't have so much fun making maps and thinking up events, thus I'm looking for someone who'd enjoy these aspect, so I can focus on the programming side, since I enjoy it much more. If I didn't have to both study and work, I would work on all the required aspects of the hack (although I admit that I'm not the most creative person in the world).

Then why not get someone else to do them for you? Why do you have to release the whole thing?

Sawakita wrote:
Miksy91 wrote:

I don't think that's what Sawakita is asking. Instead, he wants people to continue his hack but when the ones who do it can't do something "complicated", Sawakita would be there to do it.

Exactly.

Then why doesn't he do this? Why make it a community effort? This implies one person is working on it with Sawakita's help, not a whole group working on it including Sawakita?

EDIT: Evil things were said.

Last edited by ~Red (2012-01-11 09:35:59)

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#116 2012-01-09 10:02:03

Mateo
Member
Registered: 2009-11-25
Post 1,170/3,627

Re: Pokemon Wood

If you don't want to be a part of the hacking community, no one is making you stay here. Instead of staying here and arguing about things that you yourself said were trivial, just focus on what you enjoy and let us do the same.

Also, your last (completely irrelevant) remark about speaking to Hat and him blaming me was clearly added as an attack on me for no reason, and I don't appreciate it. He can blame me all he wants, but it doesn't matter. He is the one who deleted everyone and everything out of nowhere, I didn't even have admin privileges at the time it happened (that was one of the first things he did when I made him an admin again after he had been absent for some time). But that is old news on an old board, and not remotely related to the topic at hand, which is Pokemon Wood Version.


I am no longer active on this forum. I only pop in from time to time.

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#117 2012-01-09 10:40:05

Cartmic
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 88/156

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:
Sawakita wrote:

Indeed my hack is not finished, that's why I'd like it to become a community project. Also, I'm sorry if you took offense. Though, I'm saddened by the fact that you're replying so harshly to me, despite all the care and time I spent answering your questions and helping you with your hacks.

Oh please do not pull out the sympathy card. I wasn't harsh at all, I was being realistic. You didn't have to help me.

Wow! What gratitude, the guy saw that you didn't have a clue where to begin with what you wanted to do so out of kindness he helped out, well I know who I won't be to quick to help in future, at the prospect of feeling used.

~Red wrote:

ROM hacking also doesn't help you learn many necessary skills for game development bar level editing and graphics. But those things can be learned anyway. The "programming" in ROM Hacking uses assembly, but no one in the gaming industry codes for a friggin' CPU, they use a programming a decent programming language that can be read easily and efficiently and code can be easily given to all members of a team for them to understand. Even to the naked eye, C++ is much easier to understand than some Hexidecimal Opcodes.

This isn't a game but still relevant, I know an operating system, that I use regularly, has core parts of it written in ARM assembly.

~Red wrote:

I will continue my hack, but only for fun, not for special tricks or to gain skills. It's kinda why I don't work on it as much as I used to, because I'd rather work on 3D online games without any engine blocks. This whole discussion has shown me that I'm getting angry/upset over something so trivially important.

Goodbye.

Well if you weren't doing it for fun in the first pace why were you doing it?

~Red wrote:

Also, I have spoke to Hat, he doesn't seem like he did anything wrong at all, in fact he blames Mateo.

To say something like this you clearly do not know Mateo, Mateo is one of the most trustworthy people I am blessed to know.

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#118 2012-01-09 15:12:49

stag019
Idea Killer
Registered: 2011-01-05
Post 118/630

Re: Pokemon Wood

Cartmic wrote:

This isn't a game but still relevant, I know an operating system, that I use regularly, has core parts of it written in ARM assembly.

Every operating system needs to have core parts written in assembly, because C isn't cut out for that. Windows is mostly C and C++, with core parts in assembly.

&@˜Red, thanks for making me feel better about myself, I thought I was an asshole.


You can try to hide yourself in this world of pretend; when the paper's crumpled up, it can't be perfect again.

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#119 2012-01-09 16:31:33

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 166/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Mateo wrote:

Also, your last (completely irrelevant) remark about speaking to Hat and him blaming me was clearly added as an attack on me for no reason, and I don't appreciate it. He can blame me all he wants, but it doesn't matter. He is the one who deleted everyone and everything out of nowhere, I didn't even have admin privileges at the time it happened (that was one of the first things he did when I made him an admin again after he had been absent for some time). But that is old news on an old board, and not remotely related to the topic at hand, which is Pokemon Wood Version.

I don't know why I said that. I do wholeheartedly apologise for it, I don't know why I thought it was relevant but it definitely was not an attack.

Also Cartmic, we're programming games here, not operating systems.

Last edited by ~Red (2012-01-09 16:32:47)

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#120 2012-01-09 18:38:40

Mateo
Member
Registered: 2009-11-25
Post 1,172/3,627

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:
Mateo wrote:

Also, your last (completely irrelevant) remark about speaking to Hat and him blaming me was clearly added as an attack on me for no reason, and I don't appreciate it. He can blame me all he wants, but it doesn't matter. He is the one who deleted everyone and everything out of nowhere, I didn't even have admin privileges at the time it happened (that was one of the first things he did when I made him an admin again after he had been absent for some time). But that is old news on an old board, and not remotely related to the topic at hand, which is Pokemon Wood Version.

I don't know why I said that. I do wholeheartedly apologise for it, I don't know why I thought it was relevant but it definitely was not an attack.

Apology accepted. We all say things that come across the wrong way. Lord knows I've done it before and had to apologize for it when I realized it too.


I am no longer active on this forum. I only pop in from time to time.

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#121 2012-01-09 22:25:34

Sawakita
Administrator
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 262/365

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:

You didn't have to help me.

Exactly my point.

~Red wrote:

Then why doesn't he do this? Why make it a community effort? This implies one person is working on it with Sawakita's help, not a whole group working on it including Sawakita?

The latter option would be my favorite. Cartmic's suggestion is appealing too.

~Red wrote:

ROM hacking also doesn't help you learn many necessary skills for game development bar level editing and graphics. But those things can be learned anyway. The "programming" in ROM Hacking uses assembly, but no one in the gaming industry codes for a friggin' CPU, they use a programming a decent programming language that can be read easily and efficiently and code can be easily given to all members of a team for them to understand. Even to the naked eye, C++ is much easier to understand than some Hexidecimal Opcodes.

ROM hacking helped me quite a bit, learning various fundaments of programming (pointers, procedural programming, endianness) and computer science in general (RAM management, I/O and interrupts handling, problem-solving). Also, ASM can be read as mnemonics, which is nicer than hexadecimal opcodes (machine language).

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#122 2012-01-10 20:14:14

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 167/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Sawakita wrote:
~Red wrote:

You didn't have to help me.

Exactly my point.

~Red wrote:

Then why doesn't he do this? Why make it a community effort? This implies one person is working on it with Sawakita's help, not a whole group working on it including Sawakita?

The latter option would be my favorite. Cartmic's suggestion is appealing too.

~Red wrote:

ROM hacking also doesn't help you learn many necessary skills for game development bar level editing and graphics. But those things can be learned anyway. The "programming" in ROM Hacking uses assembly, but no one in the gaming industry codes for a friggin' CPU, they use a programming a decent programming language that can be read easily and efficiently and code can be easily given to all members of a team for them to understand. Even to the naked eye, C++ is much easier to understand than some Hexidecimal Opcodes.

ROM hacking helped me quite a bit, learning various fundaments of programming (pointers, procedural programming, endianness) and computer science in general (RAM management, I/O and interrupts handling, problem-solving). Also, ASM can be read as mnemonics, which is nicer than hexadecimal opcodes (machine language).

Yes but even then it's quite hard to understand to the naked eye. Torquescript for instance:

function helloworld(%msg)
{
   echo(%msg);
}

This is English compared to ASM.

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#123 2012-01-10 20:16:44

~Red
Member
Registered: 2010-10-16
Post 168/276

Re: Pokemon Wood

Cartmic wrote:

Wow! What gratitude, the guy saw that you didn't have a clue where to begin with what you wanted to do so out of kindness he helped out, well I know who I won't be to quick to help in future, at the prospect of feeling used..

Oh please. Don't be so childish. I gave gratitude when I got the information. Doesn't mean I have to lick his ass.

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#124 2012-01-10 20:38:34

422/703

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:

Plus, mercurial would probably not be the way to go, from what I know it's for mostly programming only. What about all the graphics and maps and features? Perhaps I don't fully understand mercurial.

Mercurial works for any collection of files, and is widely used in game development, including for art assets. Source control of some sort is basically universal in industry, and I recommend learning it as soon as possible. (I recommend Mercurial and Git. Subversion is probably more widely used, though it doesn’t have the decentralization features of the first two—but it’s still much, much better than nothing.)

Whether assembly is directly useful to you or not depends on which industry you plan to enter. The concepts assembly teaches are extremely useful for system‐level programming, and essential for digital logic and microprocessor design (my particular field). For the games industry… while I won’t discount the value of ASM as a way to learn programming concepts, few games are written in assembly these days except for fun. If you don’t like it, don’t need it, and don’t want to learn it, then it’s probably not for you.

#125 2012-01-10 20:49:46

423/703

Re: Pokemon Wood

~Red wrote:
Cartmic wrote:

Wow! What gratitude, the guy saw that you didn't have a clue where to begin with what you wanted to do so out of kindness he helped out, well I know who I won't be to quick to help in future, at the prospect of feeling used..

Oh please. Don't be so childish. I gave gratitude when I got the information. Doesn't mean I have to lick his ass.

The point you expressed here would be just as clear without unnecessary flamebaiting.

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