Skeetendo

’Cause all games were better on the GBC

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#1 2013-08-25 20:36:14

80C
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Registered: 2013-03-16
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Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Well, this is an important argument on which I'm talking about.

What I'm saying is that the old method of hacking made by Hex-Editing and Assembly changes is dying.

This because the hacks done with disassembly are quicker and with that changes are even more great rather than the "traditional" method of hacking.

The hacking done by searching in tables, studying bytes and tables and change\add asm commands throught debugging is vanishing and is now more obsolete than ever.

The fun (sad) fact is that - exept the disassembly - there are no tutorials of how run a disassembly and what you have to do with that, that's why I'm speeding up a lot for the production of my hacks.

I planned previously changes that with hex-ed and Asm-ed required at least 8\10 months and I did those in record time (4 months), but this is still slow... I'm speeding up as hell while I know that in Early 2014 the "old" method of hacking you know will be dead.

Mine will be the last "Classic" Hack to be released, and I'll make sure to release all my important works BEFORE the disassembly method kills totally the "old method".

This means also that all the "minor" hacks will disappear as well as the "minor" hackers, so get a move and start learn faster, because if you won't join the new tendency you'll be blasted away from hacking.

I'll release my last Betas then I'll try to get down with disassembly, but about that there are not so much tutorials and I feel like I'll be blown away someday.


That makes me sure of 5 things:

1- The final releases of all my public hacks will be done with disassembly;
2- After I finish my hack I'll do ONLY another one hack, next time with GSC base;
3- I'll work on disassembly Pokemon Gold;
4- My next hack will be a team hack if I'll be able to find someone that agrees;
5- Say goodbye to your days as a hacker as you meant it before;

Who evolves will survive, who doesn't will be blasted away.
I hope to be one of those at the last moment were able to "jump" on the next level of hacking.


I left this forum.

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#2 2013-08-25 20:54:47

AtecainCorp.
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Registered: 2013-04-14
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

I know it. I try do all my best to help you. But you all avoid my ideas... <Also my offers with Music Making>


http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3435/ - Pokemon Ruby GEN V GRAPHIC hack Thread
http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3476/ - Unused Music Midi Thread
http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3579/ - Some info about region Thonsu

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#3 2013-08-25 20:57:11

Miksy91
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Disassembly is not the thing that will make a good hack. It's the way you use it.

If you don't plan on re-doing the game engine, you won't really need disassembly for the project. Dark Energy and KBM's Prism are "probably" the best Gen II hacks available and neither one of them is based on disassembly. And neither one of them would be better in terms of gameplay if they were based on disassembly instead.

I do agree that disassembly makes rom hacking a lot easier since it's closer to the way how programs are created with programming languages. Because just like with programming languages, also with disassembly you'd compile the symbolic language into CPU code (thus making it more user-friendly to edit the code of the game).
But really, if you're only doing a few changes to the original coding here and there, you won't need disassembly for the hack. But if one would be coding a new gameboy game from scratch (a.k.a not a hack), it would be stupid to write the game with hex editing and assemblers.

Also rising an interesting point/question here;
If you know how to program, why do something as simple as hack an existing game? Wouldn't it be more interesting to start making a new, own game from scratch instead?
That would mean more coding and less editing (unlike we're doing with hacking).

Last edited by Miksy91 (2013-08-25 20:58:11)

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#4 2013-08-25 21:25:20

80C
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Miksy91 wrote:

Disassembly is not the thing that will make a good hack. It's the way you use it.

If you don't plan on re-doing the game engine, you won't really need disassembly for the project. Dark Energy and KBM's Prism are "probably" the best Gen II hacks available and neither one of them is based on disassembly. And neither one of them would be better in terms of gameplay if they were based on disassembly instead.

I do agree that disassembly makes rom hacking a lot easier since it's closer to the way how programs are created with programming languages. Because just like with programming languages, also with disassembly you'd compile the symbolic language into CPU code (thus making it more user-friendly to edit the code of the game).
But really, if you're only doing a few changes to the original coding here and there, you won't need disassembly for the hack. But if one would be coding a new gameboy game from scratch (a.k.a not a hack), it would be stupid to write the game with hex editing and assemblers.


I wish agree with that, since I use to edit only by changes and not by deep engine changes, but it seems that the "Classic" method of hacking is becaming obsolete and "minor" hackers will be doomed to disappear.

I use to use a Game disassembly as base for tables\etc. and then hex-edit or change\add asm codes throught BGB debugger, that's why I'm looking for a Gold disassembly in the future.

Miksy91 wrote:

Also rising an interesting point/question here;
If you know how to program, why do something as simple as hack an existing game? Wouldn't it be more interesting to start making a new, own game from scratch instead?
That would mean more coding and less editing (unlike we're doing with hacking).

Hey... that is the target for a job I want in the future when I'll finish all my studies after University!
But since I'm still a kind of rookie in languages (I'm learning only asm) first I'd rather finish to learn those (and get all the required certificates from University, of course).


I left this forum.

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#5 2013-08-26 04:25:57

comet
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Registered: 2012-04-09
Post 282/679

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Miksy91 wrote:

Dark Energy and KBM's Prism are "probably" the best Gen II hacks available and neither one of them is based on disassembly.

there wasn't one to use. both of these hacks took years to make, and neither are done.

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#6 2013-08-26 07:28:09

theoblivinator
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From: Iowa
Registered: 2012-08-20
Post 93/98

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

When I made my very minor Crystal hack last week I found using the disassembly extremely easy and efficient to use. It took me about 3 hours maximum to edit 50% of the trainers in the game and was very easy to do since it was just one text file, instead of a table of bytes in a hex editor. It is a lot easier to just type out a Pokemon Species name, level, and four moves rather than finding the appropriate table and changing the hex values one after another. It was more visual appealing to me.


I haven't done much besides that but the next step is script editing and that should be a breeze since the event data and scripts dont need to be repointed in the disassembly.

I agree that this new age hacking will take over the classic hacking methods. It converted me at least.

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#7 2013-08-26 07:33:03

AtecainCorp.
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Registered: 2013-04-14
Post 522/627

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Yep.... In age of new games and new hacking discoveries like Map editor for Pokemon NDS games and other NDS PKMN Games editor. Hacking of GBC was coming to end.


http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3435/ - Pokemon Ruby GEN V GRAPHIC hack Thread
http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3476/ - Unused Music Midi Thread
http://hax.iimarck.us/topic/3579/ - Some info about region Thonsu

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#8 2013-08-26 07:50:52

Miksy91
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

comet wrote:
Miksy91 wrote:

Dark Energy and KBM's Prism are "probably" the best Gen II hacks available and neither one of them is based on disassembly.

there wasn't one to use. both of these hacks took years to make, and neither are done.

You're right - the one for crystal wasn't done back then when we started either. Currently, I'd be more than willing to learn how it works (since I haven't looked on it, it's easy to assume I don't know) and switch on to making a crystal hack instead. But that would mean I'd probably cancel Dark Energy in the process as well.

By the way, has anyone looked it from this aspect;
Personally, I don't see the most significant use in disassembly for being able code easily. Instead, I'd see the best part of it being able to modify text data without having to repoint it every time I need to expand it. You see, I have problems with english, so the text has lots of small grammar errors, and disassembly would give me the keys to fix all those errors in an instant. That's something I really like about it.

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#9 2013-08-26 11:14:54

emaj30
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From: Indigo Plateau
Registered: 2012-12-29
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

It will die eventually if everyone would stick to disassembly. But the fact is not everyone can or able to learn it, not even simple programming. Being conventional in terms of ROM hacking can never lose it's place against new other methods.

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#10 2013-08-26 12:00:50

Hat
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Registered: 2013-02-04
Post 43/118

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Miksy91 wrote:

By the way, has anyone looked it from this aspect;
Personally, I don't see the most significant use in disassembly for being able code easily. Instead, I'd see the best part of it being able to modify text data without having to repoint it every time I need to expand it. You see, I have problems with english, so the text has lots of small grammar errors, and disassembly would give me the keys to fix all those errors in an instant. That's something I really like about it.

A fair while back IIMarckus was telling me via PM the benefits of making a hack with a disassembly. He mentioned that repointing would become unnecessary. Not only could text errors be more easily fixed but other types of mistakes as well, there wouldn't be any need to create backup patches.

This reminds me of the ASM vs. corruption thread on RHDN. Both hex and dis. can be used to produce desired results of course. Look at Brown (hex) vs. Wood (disassembly).

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#11 2013-08-26 13:25:19

Miksy91
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Hat wrote:

A fair while back IIMarckus was telling me via PM the benefits of making a hack with a disassembly. He mentioned that repointing would become unnecessary. Not only could text errors be more easily fixed but other types of mistakes as well, there wouldn't be any need to create backup patches.

That's true since the one writing the disassembly doesn't need to have a simple idea of where data is written when the disassembly is compiled into a running game. Pointing to data works so that you mark wanted addresses as text.

For example, we could write the following instruction with disassembly;

ld a, (TownMapAreasAccessable)

and the piece of code that would be using that instruction could be compiled into the rom as;

FA 51 D6

which in symbolic language could for example be presented as;

ld a, (D651)

So now, any time you would point to data in D651 in ram, in disassembly you'd refer to that imaginary address as "TownMapAreasAccessable". Also another thing to point out about this is that any time you do changes to the disassembly, the outcome rom file could be a lot different due to it re-organizing where all kinds of data in memory are stored. So if once this town map data would be stored in that address, it could later on be stored in D653 instead (if two other memory slots before it were needed in latter disassembly version).

Last edited by Miksy91 (2013-08-26 13:29:16)

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#12 2013-08-26 17:42:04

comet
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Registered: 2012-04-09
Post 283/679

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Miksy91 wrote:

Personally, I don't see the most significant use in disassembly for being able code easily. Instead, I'd see the best part of it being able to modify text data without having to repoint it every time I need to expand it. You see, I have problems with english, so the text has lots of small grammar errors, and disassembly would give me the keys to fix all those errors in an instant. That's something I really like about it.

the biggest thing is collaboration. any number of people can make changes and it's really easy to pull them into your project.

one day we got together and did a hack in 24 hours. the idea was to see how fast we could get stuff done. that worked out ok, but it's a much better example of how easy it was to work together. we all used each other's changes without missing a beat. you can see how this played out here: https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal- … its/master

sanky did a variable-width font. we made a bunch of maps and events. this would have been impossible if we had to trade roms all the time.


Miksy91 wrote:

But that would mean I'd probably cancel Dark Energy in the process as well.

existing hacks are relatively easy to port over. we wrote a tool to dump all the map events in the game, which you can do to your own rom. danny-e converted his graphics patch recently.

Last edited by comet (2013-08-26 20:08:21)

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#13 2013-08-27 06:13:16

Miksy91
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

I totally see your point about collaboration. I've personally always found building hacking teams stupid. Not only because most members wouldn't understand a thing about the general hacking aspect (this is how it goes in PC team thread section), but also because of "data corruption" that can happen if two hackers happen to write in the exact same place inside the rom.

comet wrote:
Miksy91 wrote:

But that would mean I'd probably cancel Dark Energy in the process as well.

existing hacks are relatively easy to port over. we wrote a tool to dump all the map events in the game, which you can do to your own rom. danny-e converted his graphics patch recently.

I'd better take a look at this then! Thanks for that info - I only thought you could port hacks based on Red and Crystal since those happen to have the fully working disassemblies already.

But how would I make use of disassembly? Shouldn't I have the disassembly of the whole rom image before I can do changes to it, and thus, compile it into a running rom file? Or can I modify the contents of specific rom banks as they are...? Dunno.

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#14 2013-08-27 21:59:13

Hat
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Registered: 2013-02-04
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Miksy91 wrote:

But how would I make use of disassembly? Shouldn't I have the disassembly of the whole rom image before I can do changes to it, and thus, compile it into a running rom file? Or can I modify the contents of specific rom banks as they are...? Dunno.

Have just reposted IIMarckus' Setting up RGBDS. ASM can be mixed with raw data:

ld [rP1],a
    ret

INCBIN "pkmn-blue.gb",$019A,$3E65

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#15 2013-08-28 16:09:05

Miksy91
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

Hat wrote:
Miksy91 wrote:

But how would I make use of disassembly? Shouldn't I have the disassembly of the whole rom image before I can do changes to it, and thus, compile it into a running rom file? Or can I modify the contents of specific rom banks as they are...? Dunno.

Have just reposted IIMarckus' Setting up RGBDS. ASM can be mixed with raw data:

ld [rP1],a
    ret

INCBIN "pkmn-blue.gb",$019A,$3E65

Thanks for the info on that thread. Should become useful later on though Danny already gave me a lot of information on how to build my own disassembly (just recently actually).

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#16 2013-08-29 11:18:32

80C
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Registered: 2013-03-16
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Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

So actually is possible disassemble every hack, right?
But how do you disassembly if you did great modifications... I mean, I kept a list in which I wrote every change or moving of tables I did, but I don't think the program already knows by himself in which location table xxxx is, right?
So Have I to do a dissassembly of one of my hacks manually or what?


I left this forum.

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#17 2013-08-29 16:07:03

comet
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Registered: 2012-04-09
Post 285/679

Re: Classic Hacking is Dying... Get a Move!

you can take the changes you made to the rom and apply them to pokered

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