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’Cause all games were better on the GBC

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#1 2012-10-13 07:45:21

koolboyman
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

"A new battle system is used for Pokémon Diamond and Pearl. In this new battle system, attacks are declared either physical or special by how the attack itself operates, i.e. whether the attack touches the enemy or not, instead of the attack type, as was previously the case. For example, ThunderPunch is now physical and Hyper Beam turns into special."

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ … s#Features

While I enjoy the older games more, I think this was the smartest gameplay change that Pokemon has ever done. 

While it's extremely doable, do you think it would be worth it to insert in a Gen II hacks, especially when Gold has half the moves of Diamond and Pearl?  Or do you just prefer all attacks to be normal/special solely based on their type?

Last edited by koolboyman (2012-10-13 08:03:35)

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#2 2012-10-13 07:56:01

Mateo
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Even though it made more sense, I wasn't a big fan of the new system because I had to re-learn which skills were physcial and which were special, and old habits die hard. Even if you *know* that they made Thunderpunch physical, you still shout at your DS when it fails to hit a Ghost at first if you are used to using it that way. But I know other people who loved it. I say it would at least be worth looking into, because I'm sure there would be plenty of hackers that want to include it, and plenty of players that would like to see the functionality added.

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#3 2012-10-13 08:35:55

Vitharix
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Yeah I have to agree with Mateo here. It really added a new element to the game that kinda alienated me, because what I thought I knew, I now didn't. Of course, it only took a few times of this happening before I started to look at attack stats and then it was smooth sailing. Having not played Gen. 3/4/5 games extensively prevents me from getting this concept fully, but it was a good thing to implement because of how the games were evolving.

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#4 2012-10-13 08:39:10

Sanqui
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Even if you *know* that they made Thunderpunch physical, you still shout at your DS when it fails to hit a Ghost at first if you are used to using it that way.

Except move categories don't affect type matchups, thus Thunderpunch, a physical move, still hits ghost Pokémon.  It just makes it use Attack and Defence, rather than Special Attack and Special Defence.

It's logical, it's how one would assume it to work from the beginning, and it's simple to guess.  It's definitely the way to go.

Last edited by Sanqui (2012-10-13 10:28:07)

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#5 2012-10-13 11:27:16

Miksy91
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

As for myself, I like the old system more and wouldn't want to see it implemented in a Gen II hack without having a choice whether to apply "physical/special" split to it or not. If you feel like doing this for Prism, I'd suggest making it as an additional patch file to the hack.

Not gonna put any arguments here, I'm pretty much on Mateo's side with this one.

Last edited by Miksy91 (2012-10-13 11:28:02)

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#6 2012-10-13 17:16:38

Mateo
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Sanky wrote:

Even if you *know* that they made Thunderpunch physical, you still shout at your DS when it fails to hit a Ghost at first if you are used to using it that way.

Except move categories don't affect type matchups, thus Thunderpunch, a physical move, still hits ghost Pokémon.  It just makes it use Attack and Defence, rather than Special Attack and Special Defence.

It's logical, it's how one would assume it to work from the beginning, and it's simple to guess.  It's definitely the way to go.

Okay, that was my bad. I mis-remembered because its been a while since I actively played a game that had the newer system. Thanks for correcting me.

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#7 2012-10-13 18:25:33

stag019
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Registered: 2011-01-05
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Mateo wrote:

Okay, that was my bad. I mis-remembered because its been a while since I actively played a game that had the newer system. Thanks for correcting me.

And see no offense but I feel this is the problem. Rather than actually disliking the mechanic itself, or the concept of it, people are being cenophobic or neophobic. Because everyone here primarily likes the first and second generation (and even then most here lean towards the second) and has no need for any beyond that, they simply dismiss anything added in other generation as an unneeded gimmick.


You can try to hide yourself in this world of pretend; when the paper's crumpled up, it can't be perfect again.

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#8 2012-10-13 19:01:27

Mateo
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

stag019 wrote:
Mateo wrote:

Okay, that was my bad. I mis-remembered because its been a while since I actively played a game that had the newer system. Thanks for correcting me.

And see no offense but I feel this is the problem. Rather than actually disliking the mechanic itself, or the concept of it, people are being cenophobic or neophobic. Because everyone here primarily likes the first and second generation (and even then most here lean towards the second) and has no need for any beyond that, they simply dismiss anything added in other generation as an unneeded gimmick.

No offense taken, although I don't think this assessment is always the case. There were features I enjoyed in the newer games, even some that were clearly gimmicks, I was just not a fan of this change in particular. But you are also right in that I didn't really want to take the time to learn the new system, I was content with disliking it for being different (and in my mind unneeded). But even though I did say that I wasn't a fan of it, I did acknowledge that there were plenty of people that did enjoy it, and therefore I said to go ahead with it. I think that this feature would have much wider support on Pokecommunity than it would here, because as a community we do prefer the older games, and I don't see anything wrong with preferring them to the new ones necessarily.

EDIT: That being said, I'm going to give the system another chance. I'll pull out Soul Silver again, and I'll pull up my Platinum rom and try to give the new system a fair chance, and then I'll re-assess my opinion after I've done that.

EDIT Again: Been playing Soul Silver like I mentioned, trying to keep an open mind. So far, I've surprisingly been having a lack of strong feelings one way or the other about the shift. I was in Kanto on my save game when I resumed playing, and I've beaten Misty, Erika, and Janine today without any complaint about the battle system. Gonna keep playing, and play Platinum a bit as well, but its currently looking like I need to reverse my official opinion of the battle system.

Last edited by Mateo (2012-10-14 07:28:10)

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#9 2012-10-16 05:37:01

Mateo
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Since I've already edited my last post twice, I figured I would double-post just to bump this a little with my new and revised input regarding my opinion of the Gen IV battle system and its application in Gen II.

First, I would like to say that after going back in and playing again like I said, I do not hold the same hard feelings for the physical/special split that I once did. Those opinions were based on inaccurate memories of the system, and do not completely apply. It honestly doesn't change the feel very much in and of itself. There is another factor that I was putting less focus on in my memory that (in my opinion) makes a much larger impact on the way the battle system feels. To me, that is the addition of abilities. In my re-evaluation, I think these caused more immediately noticeable change than the physical/special split. I know there is another thread here asking the question of whether or not they should be implemented as well, so I won't discuss them any further in this thread. But in terms of the original question, implementing the physical/special split from the later gens, I think it might be a cool feature to add. My apologies for making an idiot of myself earlier due to misremembering, and a big thanks to stag019 for calling me out and making me want to go back and re-evaluate my opinion on this with an open mind, instead of going on being ignorant.

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#10 2012-10-16 17:15:53

stag019
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Registered: 2011-01-05
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Mateo wrote:

and a big thanks to stag019 for calling me out and making me want to go back and re-evaluate my opinion on this with an open mind, instead of going on being ignorant.

Thaniks, I try.

Now it's Miksy's turn. Because to be honest I've seen this whole "make in an optional additional patch" thing plenty of times before, and if a rom hacker did that for everything suggested, they'd end up having to distribute over 9000 patches, and then everyone playing their game would get a different perspective and a different opinion of the game.


You can try to hide yourself in this world of pretend; when the paper's crumpled up, it can't be perfect again.

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#11 2012-10-16 17:34:20

Miksy91
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

stag019 wrote:

Now it's Miksy's turn. Because to be honest I've seen this whole "make in an optional additional patch" thing plenty of times before, and if a rom hacker did that for everything suggested, they'd end up having to distribute over 9000 patches, and then everyone playing their game would get a different perspective and a different opinion of the game.

That's true, yet it doesn't change my opinion about adding the physical/special split in Gen I, II or III in any way. I have never played through any Gen IV or V game or even gotten very far in them either (the only particular reason I started making Dark Future based on a pokemon game in the first place is the fact that I couldn't have modified any other game (like Final Fantasy IV) in a similar way to this one. What I probably want to say here that I'm no true fan but I like pokemon games either way; physical/special split just doesn't belong to what I'm used to so I wouldn't want to see one in a rom hack either.) But you're right, having lots of additional patches for a rom hack is not the way to go.

Everyone's got valid opinions here though. If someone wants to input physical/special split in a rom hack, that won't stop me playing it but as for myself, I would get annoyed by such feature being around because I'm not used to it. There could be a school for beginners there to teach how new mechanisms work though or something.

Last edited by Miksy91 (2012-10-16 17:39:06)

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#12 2012-10-31 11:42:34

johnr754
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Registered: 2012-10-21
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

That would be nice. I've always liked the new battling system, and it would look great in Gen II.

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#13 2012-12-16 11:44:12

koolboyman
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Well I implemented it.  Here you can implement it yourself and move the addresses to wherever you want.  This works for your pokemon but not enemies at the moment.

//Stats the new routine
0D:543F - jp $7FA0

//Main routine
0D:7FA0 - ld hl, $5000
0D:7FA3 - ld a, $26
0D:7FA5 - rst $8 //Moves to a new bank
0D:7FA6 - ld a,[$DEFF] // Load result into a
0D:7FA9 - dec a // Decreases the value you got so it can easily check if it's special or not.
0D:7FAa - jp z, $5467 // If it's zero, it's a special attack.
0D:7FAd - jp $5443 // Else is a physical.

//Getting the type
26:5000 - ld a,[$CE60] // Get the move ID
26:5003 - ld hl,$5100 // Pointer to type array
26:5006 - ld l,a // Increase the pointer by the move being used
26:5007 - ld a, [hl] // Load the result into a
26:5008 - ld [$DEFF],a //Save result into RAM
26:500C - ret

26:5100 - Array of attack type
0 - Physical
1 - Special

I'm also considering letting people choose which method they'd want which would be setable in the options menu.  A simple RAM check would take care of that.

Last edited by koolboyman (2012-12-16 20:18:20)

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#14 2012-12-16 14:55:56

Miksy91
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

I may be missing something here or did you forget to add instruction "ld a, [hl]" after hl is loaded with "$5100 + [a]" there ?

Other than that, I may actually "warm" to the idea of inputting this in my own hack as well :)
Also to explain better what 26:5100 there is for, it's used to look for a "table" for each move. Basically, you have to manually write 00 or 01 for every move in order there.

Edit:
I think it would be a good idea to create this kind of a table for G/S/C moves. I'm not going to go for it myself now but if no one does that, maybe later.

Last edited by Miksy91 (2012-12-16 15:08:42)

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#15 2012-12-16 19:57:19

koolboyman
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Registered: 2010-10-16
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

Miksy91 wrote:

I may be missing something here or did you forget to add instruction "ld a, [hl]" after hl is loaded with "$5100 + [a]" there ?

Other than that, I may actually "warm" to the idea of inputting this in my own hack as well :)
Also to explain better what 26:5100 there is for, it's used to look for a "table" for each move. Basically, you have to manually write 00 or 01 for every move in order there.

Edit:
I think it would be a good idea to create this kind of a table for G/S/C moves. I'm not going to go for it myself now but if no one does that, maybe later.

Yeah I did.  Wrote it very late last night :p.  I'll fix it now.

And yeah 26:5100 is an array of a bunch of 00s and 01s.  You could also use 02s for status type moves just to keep things clean.

Last edited by koolboyman (2012-12-16 19:58:11)

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#16 2012-12-17 14:10:31

FroggestSpirit
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Registered: 2012-03-12
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Re: Gen IV Battle Mechanics in Gen II?

I like this idea. I started a play through of sapphire, and that's the one thing that always bothered me, but seeing the split would be nice!


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